Minimal Wave Records

Actually I have seen quite a few artists who sell their remaining stock copies for big bucks on eBay, not that it’s wrong, but it just has happened.
Now, I totally agree with the snippet theory, I see a lot of people who have blogs saying that the reason they do it is to promote and let the people know of the music that’s out there, promoting is absolutely different than giving away the whole work of artists.
In my opinion, just try to find the artist and ask him if it is ok to upload his work, not wait for him to find it uploaded and then erase it.
It’s not that I’ve never downloaded anything, to tell you the truth, since I am very young, there were a lot of things that I found out by downloading.
But it just pisses me off that when you really search hard for “this” really obscure and rare record, and finally find it and give your very precious money (which sometimes you can’t afford), then there’s suddenly some guy who uploads the whole thing
and everybody just “discovers” and “knows” everything about it.
But then I could be all wrong… :?

[quote author=“Trespasser_w”]
But it just pisses me off that when you really search hard for “this” really obscure and rare record, and finally find it and give your very precious money (which sometimes you can’t afford), then there’s suddenly some guy who uploads the whole thing
and everybody just “discovers” and “knows” everything about it.
But then I could be all wrong… :?

Ehm there’s a big contraddiction in your words, sorry.

From your post is clear that you discover a good part of these bands downloading them and now that you reached a ‘satisfactory’ quantity of mp3s that you can say ‘i know this and that’, you are judging o even fearing then who is starting now to discover…well is not fair. If a lot of persons know these bands, then labels should expect more orders from their website/shop..

Let’s do the game of the contrary with my stuff. We are distributing the re-issue of Cold Phoenix, they did just a 12’’ in 1985 and i personally shared it on my blog and soulseek. What happened then? Now everybody knows Cold Phoenix, consider that this band was so obscure even HERE in Italy that talking with everybody from the old wave scene (from journalists to musicians) nobody knows them. NO A PERSON. Not even the 2 guys that wrote a book of wave vinyls in Italy. And now the vinyl is finishing for 200 or more dollars on Ebay…(and this is the negative fx) but then the label was coming back again and asking me if i can help them to manage the whole thing, from the audio to the packaging and now their release will be available in CD format with 2 great unreleased bonus tracks, that they would stay under the dust without this..(and these are the positive fxs)...

Now the point is that we are so mature and conscient that we ALL should surpass the ‘DOWNLOADING TIME’ for the bands that persons like Ton and M. make available again.and if we like we should feel morally “obliged” to buy them. This is the point for me: the first step was the downloading (as it was the only step possibile for the rarity and all), the second step is supporting them.
Of course the labels theirselves should produce a good work, but from what i see is rare that a re-issue is a crap…did u ever see the Storung and Ensemble Pittoresque reissues? maybe the price is a bit high (22 euro, but if you think that a normal cd jewel case costs 14-15 euro i would not say that is so high) but well you have a GREAT quality product in your hands, with a great sounding 180gr LP, a CD and even 2 stickers…for me this is the way.

What i cannot accept from posts like M. did is that i should believe that mp3s damaged the labels. Advancing the fact that the download story started at the end of 90’s, first with Napster, then with Audiogalaxy, then with Soulseek and nowdays with Blogs (just to name the main p2p and download stuff), let’s then analyze the birth year of these labels

Enfant Terrible - 2004
Infrastition - 2004
Minimal Wave - 2005
Anna Logue Records - 2005
Spittle Records - revived in 2006
Clogsontronics- revived in 2007
Brouillard Definitif - 2007
Eirkti - 2008

The only exception are the guys of Genetic (from 1999), the real re-discovers of this ‘minimal’ music.

Do you want really that i believe that these labels are born or back without a request coming from the audience after the mp3s sharing? Well im not dumb

you never read or understood my point… but I have had it with this discussion as I tried to explain myself already several times… and sorry to dissapoint you… I never started my label because of the request for music by other people… only for my own pleasure… and still that is the only reason… I am sure most people will see this…

and sorry again Genetic was not the first or the “real” thing… they did some good work but others like Borft has been doing the digging and re-issueing for a long time before them… and Trumpett never died… they always continued… even released two 7"s with Sensible Chaos… and there are more examples…

[quote author=“M”]

and sorry again Genetic was not the first or the “real” thing… they did some good work but others like Borft has been doing the digging and re-issueing for a long time before them… and Trumpett never died… they always continued… even released two 7"s with Sensible Chaos… and there are more examples…

Genetic was simply an exemple, and i think the most representative. They covered both Cold Wave and Minimal Synth, both Old and New bands, German and Foreign, Famous and not famous. Did Borft worked like this? No. and Trumpett? they r an old label, they r not back now, they never stopped, so is totally out of topic.

and is useless that u try to add gas to fire doing other exemples, trying to ‘prove’ that you know more things than me, cause sorry is a lost war. this is not a challenge, im trying to fix with the others - and not with you as it is impossible - what really happened during these years.

You are not even able to understand that im on your side when you say some things but of course im not agree with some others, so please or ignore my words or try to be in topic.

anyway im curious to know the feedback from Marc/Anna Logue..

[quote author=“ton”]

PS: However I would not wish every label owner to start working on a re-issue only to see blogs popping up and publishing your album for free for download. I had this experience and it is not a nice one I can assure you.

No in fact is not nice at all. This is the point that i tried to analyze..i think in a good way, considering both the parts (rippers/labels) and i tried to point out a constructive dialogue…being realist about the nowdays situation…now the game is on the hands of the audience, they should be enough intelligent to analyze themselves the situation and say : we received a lot for free, now is the time to give something back..

[quote author=“peter_m”][quote author=“ton”]

PS: However I would not wish every label owner to start working on a re-issue only to see blogs popping up and publishing your album for free for download. I had this experience and it is not a nice one I can assure you.

No in fact is not nice at all. This is the point that i tried to analyze..i think in a good way, considering both the parts (rippers/labels) and i tried to point out a constructive dialogue…being realist about the nowdays situation…now the game is on the hands of the audience, they should be enough intelligent to analyze themselves the situation and say : we received a lot for free, now is the time to give something back..

With music being available for free and easy to download, “the audience” perceives music as a commodity, something that is there for free, like air: Pay for music or films, why when you can get it for free? Only fools…...This is how most people I meet see music ( or films). It is sad, but I don’t see people changing their behaviour in the near future.
Here on this little forum, most of us agree will on this subject, but to the majority we are romantic fools, fossils.  Well, I’d rather be a fool than a thief.

What is the difference between a song on an illegal MP3 compilation and a song being played on the radio and then archived as a podcast of the radio show?  If you’re going to nix a digital compilation that someone made and shares with internet travelers then you might as well shut down any radio play or club play that those songs may get too.  You’re not making money off of people hearing a single song in clubs or on radio so therefor they shouldn’t be heard, right?

I fully understand about a label and/or artist wanting to be compensated for their efforts, but are you doing the label/band just to make money or are you doing it as a creative outlet?  Which is more important, the capitalism or the art?

Word!

[quote author=“Ollie_Stench”]

I fully understand about a label and/or artist wanting to be compensated for their efforts, but are you doing the label/band just to make money or are you doing it as a creative outlet?  Which is more important, the capitalism or the art?

really… my last post in this topic… READ!!! I never spoke about money… I only spoke about giving my permission / being asked permission to use music I released!! For my label… the music played on radio station is only played and for sure only archived when they get official limited edition promos from me… so yes there is a big difference… I have invited these radio station to play and if they want to archive this music… they are on my promo list…

The difference? “Permission”. Given explicitly or implicitly by the artist/label in question….

My questions were not directed at anyone in particular (sorry if it came across like that), I was just trying to bring up points that hadn’t been brought up yet.

My point about the radio broadcasts stemmed from my 5+ years experience programming and hosting a radio show.  100% of what I played came from my personal collection, no promos or freebies or label sponsored music.  My show was archived for 2 weeks and available as a streaming audio file.  I know alot of people would listen to and keep copies of the show.  That was beyond my control.

i am sorry to say i do not have the time to analyse this complex topic and find the most wise comments to cover it all.

in short: i guess with no doubt the “sharing of mp3s” has both positive and negative sides, but what i can definitely tell you is that you do not help me at all if you share complete releases as you are aware of the fact that most probably >90% of the people will NOT buy the actual release afterwards.

in general, it is a shame when people think they can have things for free. be assured that while knowing how much work and efforts we put into these releases we would prefer not to sell only 400 copies of a release, but 4000 or 40000 copies, OF COURSE.

i can only thank my loyal customers, they are just great! to the others i can only say: nice burning in the eternal lake of fire.

Thanks for your views, Marc,

I’ve been thinking of using you as an example in this thread - because I’m well familiar with your back catalogue and I would think that, although as you say, some people might feel it’s enough to get a bundle of mp3s, I’m sure you must have a lot of fans and collectors who like the vinyls with inserts, signed photos, etc?

What I’d like to ask you is, is there a point where to you, illegal downloading would not matter?
If you sold out the first edition of an album, made another and sold that out, then decided not to make a third edition; would it bother you if the music was out on torrents? What if I gave a cd-r to my sister who doesn’t have a vinyl player; would you consider it a crime?

And seeing as the debate has been heated, rest assured I’m not telling you what to think… it’s not a rhetorical question; I want to know how you feel about this and I value your opinion.

hi Oyst,

answers to your questions is given below.

[quote author=“reactorlgtn”]although as you say, some people might feel it’s enough to get a bundle of mp3s, I’m sure you must have a lot of fans and collectors who like the vinyls with inserts, signed photos, etc?

and what do you think is the ratio here ? an example: some time ago i was in Berlin when Anna 014 Poeme Electronique The Echoes fade (Remix) was played in a club. to my surprise there were like 50 people dancing. at this point i was not even sure if i had sold 50 copies at all (exaggerated, but you get the point). then i WAS there, actually selling the record, but ‘no-one’ did .... so where did they know it from….. if feel like being parasited on (and also the band doesn’t deserve this).

[quote author=“reactorlgtn”]What I’d like to ask you is, is there a point where to you, illegal downloading would not matter?

i think it is a double-edged sword, and maybe i do ddistinguish between old/unavailable and new/available. indeed i think it is a good thing when releases are completely sold out/totally unavailable, and/or expensive - but who can find a defintiion/threshold for this ??? no-one .... but anyway, nowadays i think it is stupid to spend a three-digit-sum on a single vinyl record. at least, i have better ideas on what to spend my little money, a personal example: animal welfare. but okay, that is another story…

[quote author=“reactorlgtn”]If you sold out the first edition of an album, made another and sold that out, then decided not to make a third edition; would it bother you if the music was out on torrents?

difficult to answer. maybe it is a question of time and availability of the tracks via legal download sites. for example, the band could provide the tracks legally and then you should download from there. as for time: normally the releases are not totally unavailable, but more likely a bit more expensive, but maybe still availabel and affordable.

[quote author=“reactorlgtn”]What if I gave a cd-r to my sister who doesn’t have a vinyl player; would you consider it a crime?

Oyst, i really hate this argument “i don’t have a turntable”, excuse me but, then simply buy one! (thanks to the techno movement) there is okay and not expensive equipment affordable for anyone! and this leads again to my previous comment: if you want anything you also have to put efforts/money in, that is my honest opinion. if you want to hear music, you should buy the release and the necessary equipment to play it. again, WHAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK THEY CAN GET EVERYTHING FOR FREE ?? i honestly think this is an attitude of people with a bad character. here also the valueing of the music itself and the bands plays a role, but i really don’t wanna write an essay here…

to conclude: maybe it is just a matter of WHAT is shared - and i think for people with a good character it is very easy to find the right decision.