Minimal Wave Records

i just listenned to some clips and ordered 2 LSE releases (Nouvelles Pièces Dissidentes + Philosophie)—based on these clips it sounds like he was on to a really great sound during this period… a really tasteful update to the old 242/early EBM sound… i wasn’t too impressed with the few earlier IP releases i heard but these clips sound really amazing.

for a long time i had to avoid listenning to any IP projects because i couldn’t support all of the terrible messages and negativity that they were putting out there in the electro / wave scene. usually i don’t care about politics etc as long as the music is good, but this was an exception… making enemies everywhere and all of this talk about “the fight” etc—so ridiculous. how can anybody take wave music so seriously? it’s wave, not black metal!

So if you couldnt support it then, why now? At least be consistent with your ideas in your actions.

well i still have some conflict with it, actually! but the memories are becoming distant

i guess since i don’t have to listen to their opinions anymore it makes it easier for me… if i were to be DJing at a club 2 years ago, and someone asks me “what is this you are playing?”—if i told them it was LSE, maybe he would go look it up on the internet & find this guy giving respect to hitler (not because of racism he would say, but still in poor taste IMO), saying anti-gay comments (where would wave be without the gay influence? wave is not macho music), saying that black music like Drexciya is not “our culture”, or declaring that they invented the electro/wave style… i don’t want people to think that i share or support these opinions

now there is silence… so it seems more ok

I’m sorry but that’s a completely retarded argument.
Let’s take the example of someone commiting a crime. Do his actions become more acceptable over time? You are romanticising the past at best, or acting out of opportunism at worst.

Note: I’m not saying I agree with the original premise (boycotting ‘Kommander’), because all different kinds of accusations are flying all over.
Facist, racist, anti-semitic, anti-zionist etc. If someone can get more specific please feel free to do so, because at least fascism and anti-zionism are hard to reconcile from a political-filosofical perspective.
I do agree he brought a lot of negativity with him, and his ego has yet to be parallelled. But those are not enough for me to justify a boycot. They only help to relativize his work in a broader context.

Did you actually remember in which context he mentioned Hitler btw? ‘Most influental persons of the last century’ IIRC. There isnt a value judgement connected to influence. I would love to see the rest of that list again though, as it provides more context.

And finally, is he the first to provoke people with opinions, quotes and imagery? Joy Division? Tanz der Mussolini? The story behind Subhuman by TG?

as i said originally, i don’t tend to care about the politics behind my music; i have always enjoyed wave for its escapist/romantic qualities. you’re getting way too deep here. i never boycotted the stuff, i just chose to ignore it at the time.

i do vaguely remember the context of the hitler comment, and regardless of how it was explained-away, i remember still coming away from reading it with a bad taste in my mouth, and it did seem to offend a lot of people. if the point were to be debated, then OK fine, his arguments were sound enough, but it’s clear that the comments were meant to provoke people in a negative way. for me, this is not cool… for me wave is more about eye-liner, skinny ties, innocence and naivity (think of those 4 nice young lads from basildon deciding to switch over from guitars to synthesizers in 1980—now that is wave). i think these negative sentiments would be better suited to the black metal scene.

whatever… i’m not trying to make any great statements here. all i’m really saying here is that 1.) i just discovered a couple of really cool records by LSE, & 2.) the silence suits them well.

[quote author=“Spartak”]I’m sorry but that’s a completely retarded argument.
Let’s take the example of someone commiting a crime. Do his actions become more acceptable over time? You are romanticising the past at best, or acting out of opportunism at worst.

Note: I’m not saying I agree with the original premise (boycotting ‘Kommander’), because all different kinds of accusations are flying all over.
Facist, racist, anti-semitic, anti-zionist etc. If someone can get more specific please feel free to do so, because at least fascism and anti-zionism are hard to reconcile from a political-filosofical perspective.
I do agree he brought a lot of negativity with him, and his ego has yet to be parallelled. But those are not enough for me to justify a boycot. They only help to relativize his work in a broader context.

Did you actually remember in which context he mentioned Hitler btw? ‘Most influental persons of the last century’ IIRC. There isnt a value judgement connected to influence. I would love to see the rest of that list again though, as it provides more context.

And finally, is he the first to provoke people with opinions, quotes and imagery? Joy Division? Tanz der Mussolini? The story behind Subhuman by TG?

Fashion statements is the essence of new wave to you?
I have no problems with that, but it appears you seem to know best what new wave is all about, not just for yourself.

And getting way to deep into what? We arent talking about a pizza here that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

i don’t tend to care about the politics behind my music

So you happened to ‘ignore’ them coincidently? You are trying to hide yourself behind semantics. Thinking a bit ‘deeper’ wouldnt do you any harm.

I’m quite missing the automaticon comments of Hervé on Myspace. 

[quote author=“Spartak”]Fashion statements is the essence of new wave to you?
I have no problems with that, but it appears you seem to know best what new wave is all about, not just for yourself.

for me, it is essentially an escapist/romantic artform… “wishing life wouldn’t be so dull”... art that is more beautiful or interesting than reality.

i don’t claim to know what wave is all about for everybody, but i don’t think many people who are into wave would characterize its essence as macho or confrontational.

[quote author=“Spartak”]And getting way to deep into what?

well i guess when you say things like “You are romanticising the past at best, or acting out of opportunism at worst.”—seems you are trying to make this into something bigger than it is. i guess you are too clever for me, because i can’t even think of how i could exploit these comments into some kind of opportunist situation for myself…?

[quote author=“Spartak”]So you happened to ‘ignore’ them coincidently? You are trying to hide yourself behind semantics. Thinking a bit ‘deeper’ wouldnt do you any harm.

well i heard some stuff by them that sounded pretty cool, like the Creme 12” which was really great IMO. then i had some bad personal interaction with the guy over email and on the GD forum, and then in person it was even worse, and then i just watched the garbage being spewed on the forums, and really i just decided that i don’t want to hear the music these people make….... that was a few years ago…. a few days ago, i saw the releases and for whatever reason, i gave the MP3s a listen and was MIGHTY impressed. i guess enough time passed that it didn’t bother me anymore to check it out. simple as that…

[quote author=“solvent”][quote author=“Spartak”]Fashion statements is the essence of new wave to you?
I have no problems with that, but it appears you seem to know best what new wave is all about, not just for yourself.

for me, it is essentially an escapist/romantic artform… “wishing life wouldn’t be so dull”... art that is more beautiful or interesting than reality.

i don’t claim to know what wave is all about for everybody, but i don’t think many people who are into wave would characterize its essence as macho or confrontational.

I disagree on the second one most definately. New wave is all about confrontation. It is (the resistance to) escapism that sets new wave apart from techno (and thus drexciya).
And it is exactly escapism why i consider new romantics a degenarate subgenre of new wave.
I really wonder what your frame of reference for new wave/ post-punk is….it certainly isnt joy division, TG, human league, kraftwerk or any of the other defining groups from the mid / late seventies.

I have to quote Simon Reynolds from ‘Rip it up and start again’ on this one: Gang of Four and Scritti Politti [and certainly not only them!] trade tell-it-like-it-is denunciation for songs that exposed and dramatized the mechanisms of power in everyday life: consumerism, sexual relations, [...]. Question everything was the catchfrase of the day, closely followed by ‘the personal is political’.

It puzzles my mind how you can regard new wave as something escapist when it is the primary reason why f.i. disco was so much hated in those circles (and some used it as a provocation to their own audience).

Look I am not intending to call you out, but it’s exactly this ‘simple reading’ of art that makes ‘confrontation’ such a popular theme used in new wave.

[quote author=“Spartak”]And getting way to deep into what?

well i guess when you say things like “You are romanticising the past at best, or acting out of opportunism at worst.”—seems you are trying to make this into something bigger than it is. i guess you are too clever for me, because i can’t even think of how i could exploit these comments into some kind of opportunist situation for myself…?

Perhaps i was…and perhaps it isnt applicable to you but they are to enough people who like / buy the music for me to want to elaborate on them.
With opportunism I meant the path of least resistance: First you choose to ignore them because you dont agree with the image they put forth (but that begs the question if one would do the same with DAF, Joy Division, Throbbing Gristle etc.). However, when you hear something from that group you really like, and the ‘ugly’ is buried in history, you set your morals aside.
It’s a cover of political correctness. A disclaimer included every time you praise the music.
With romanticising i meant to say that in the course of history artist and work of art become increasingly more detached from each other, which provides an easy excuse to tolerate something you wouldnt agree to in a present form.

well i heard some stuff by them that sounded pretty cool, like the Creme 12” which was really great IMO. then i had some bad personal interaction with the guy over email and on the GD forum, and then in person it was even worse, and then i just watched the garbage being spewed on the forums, and really i just decided that i don’t want to hear the music these people make….... that was a few years ago…. a few days ago, i saw the releases and for whatever reason, i gave the MP3s a listen and was MIGHTY impressed. i guess enough time passed that it didn’t bother me anymore to check it out. simple as that…

This is why I prefer to keep my distance from artists i like. But it does put things a bit into perspective for me. Personal issues always work on a primary level. Animosity probably does more justice to your relation to the label then opportunism / romanticising (the “you” there should be read general not you personally).

Sorry that i was a bit rough on you…

an interesting discussion, and one I have many opinions about…

Spart sez
> New wave is all about confrontation.

That would be punk surely?

You seem to be discussing different things, Solvent quotes “Wishing life wouldn’t be so dull”, from Visage track “Fade To Grey”. Now, Visage were escapist, but they were not a-political! I seem to recall having read that they saw themselves as politically left field, which was the same with Duran, Human League, Cabs, ABC… The escapism was for the working class (which most of them belonged to, IIRC?), obviously the group who need it most.
-But are these bands “New wave” to you? When I hear that term, I think of the Jam, the Knack and Blondie… (Or Dead Kennedys’ parodic “Pull My Strings”...)
I can’t see any band since 1984 as new wave as, to me, the new wave period ended in the mid-80s.

I have never been much into LSE, I have an LP of them and they’re on the Bubbleboy mixes record IIRC, but I’ve never read any interviews of them, let alone talked to them. Them? Him? A-nyway, the way this discussion looks to a casual LSE listener, the Nazi finger has been pointed. I avoid having to do with nazis, such is my right in a democracy, and I would not go to any length to support the work of a nazi artist (ie. like buying their work or so).
But suddenly, it turns out that LSE have only said Hitler was an influence on the last century. That’s an opinion shared by many, of all political persuasions, and not very controversial… So then, are they NOT nazis after all? But if so, why was this stated? How is it important in LSE’s non-fascist art that Hitler was influential to the last century? Is this some badly covered reference to people who think Hitler doesn’t get the recognition he deserves? In other words, what am I to believe?

I used to have what’s known as “The Laibach debate” in my youth, generally at parties… some slacker would say he hates their fascist crap, and I would then point out that their crap is many things, but not fascist, how they presented totalitarian art, also communist art, without making any conclusions on the listener’s behalf… I had a deep respect for this attitude, the “think for yourself” policy which to me is anti-totalitarian.

And then I saw them live and it turns out right-wing extremists read something else into Laibach than I did. I saw people standing with their right arms raised most of the gig, something I feel I need to distance myself from.
Laibach are playing here this weekend and i’m not going (well, the lack of interesting music from them in the last ten years also helps).

So what am I saying? Maybe simply that if someone applies the fascist tag on you, I won’t support your carreer, even if they were wrong about you…
This, however, would ultimately make artistical freedom impossible, and then what’s the point of music at all?

It’s difficult. Let’s just say, instead of “don’t go there”, “know what you’re doing and don’t go there if you don’t need to”...

Sorry about the length of this post…
peace out mon.

hi reactor,

excellent points!

the difference between punk and new wave is not in the idea of confrontation but in the way they handle confrontation. For new wave much more as a magnifying glass. That’s also made explicit in the quote from Simon Reynolds (whose book about new wave/  post-punk I recommend to anyone interested in the music.) Punk is way more direct.

The escapism you mention is like I said in the new romantics field of synthpop. It’s a reaction to the whole politization of music by new wave and punk. But the political is still lingering in the background…

Regarding LSE I think you touch the core of the issue.
I think what caused controversy was that Hitler was included in a list of ‘thinkers’. In combination with many anti-semitic/anti-zionist remarks the image was there. What fascinates me is that this image was almost fully created outside of his field of art. Does this plead for or against someone?
I havent been to any of his live-performances so i cant really judge about those. But the music does not really reflect anything he said on the internet to me. So if there are references they are buried deep in the music.

I think we can be pretty sure LSE was aiming for controversy. And it spiralled out of control. The fact they stopped is perhaps the best argument in supports of this.

So, indeed: ‘know what you’re doing when you go there’

[quote author=“Spartak”]
That’s also made explicit in the quote from Simon Reynolds (whose book about new wave/  post-punk I recommend to anyone interested in the music.)

Yes, I’ve been meaning to read that book since it came out… this summer sometime? Everyone says it’s great, and the compilation CD that came with it is certainly something special!

Regarding LSE I think you touch the core of the issue.
I think what caused controversy was that Hitler was included in a list of ‘thinkers’. In combination with many anti-semitic/anti-zionist remarks the image was there. What fascinates me is that this image was almost fully created outside of his field of art. Does this plead for or against someone?
I havent been to any of his live-performances so i cant really judge about those. But the music does not really reflect anything he said on the internet to me. So if there are references they are buried deep in the music.

Yes, this is interesting. How would it be if you could only listen to music made by people you sympathize with? What would happen if you boycott any opinion you don’t share? Especially in this case, for the only thing I know about LSE’s political “programme” is hearsay - no-one claims any fascist remarks have been heard in the music…

O well. Thanks for reminding me about these things, it is useful from time to time to think about it.

-ø-

Anybody has his own “new wave” feeling, it’s subjective… spartak criticize the reactor’s point of view but at the same time he (spartak) pretend to know the “only-true-real” point of view. It looks like an ego fight. Like the battle for the one who will show the biggest vinyl collection… endless void.

The second point is that there’s a difference between a band that use a “fascist” words to point out/criticize it clearly, and the one that plays with fascist concepts but remaining blur (because they are idiot, blind, consciousless, follow the fashion and stereotype of a movement, etc).

>>>>I disagree on the second one most definately. New wave is all about confrontation. It is (the resistance to) escapism that sets new wave apart from techno (and thus drexciya).<<<

you know, i think it can be way too confusing to use the term “new wave”—i mean, if we are discussing “new wave” as defined by Simon Reynold’s book (which i’ve read), then sure, what i said about it being essentially an escapist artform is wrong. but for me, when i’m listening to some of my favorite synthpop/electrowave/etc artists, i am admiring the music mainly for the wonderful mood that it creates, i’m analysing the synthesis and production techniques— it’s a beautiful world to escape into.

>>>And it is exactly escapism why i consider new romantics a degenarate subgenre of new wave. <<<

i can understand why some people would dislike new romantic… the new romantic movement was very shallow… but hey, i love some of it. i would love to jump into the video for “planet earth” and talk to nick rhodes about synthesizers. i’m not a purist “minimal-wave” guy - i would rather listen to “Fade to Grey” than “Subhuman”. i don’t walk around with make-up and frilly shirts, but i like the images of early synthpop/new romantic artists…. for me it is a cool compliment to the whole package (not neccessary, but cool, for me at least). i prefer to see David Sylvian singing than some guy who looks like my next door neighbor.

>>>>I really wonder what your frame of reference for new wave/ post-punk is….it certainly isnt joy division, TG, human league, kraftwerk or any of the other defining groups from the mid / late seventies. <<<

TG is the only artist that you list, IMO, who had a clear confrontational agenda, and i don’t much like TG, only a few of the more synthpop songs like “Hot on the Heels”, “Adrenaline”, “Walkaround”..... as for Joy Division and DAF, i don’t think any great thought went into these early confrontational moves… it was the punk era & people did stuff like that to get attention… none of the later actions by JD or DAF continued this flirtation w/fascism

>>>>It puzzles my mind how you can regard new wave as something escapist when it is the primary reason why f.i. disco was so much hated in those circles (and some used it as a provocation to their own audience). <<<

well i read “Wreckers of Civilization” and i found it very interesting even though i don’t much sympathize with their agendas…. but when i listen to “Hot on the Heels…” it’s just a great sounding synthpop track for me and none of TG’s politics enter my mind. i’m thinking things like “how were they triggering those cr78 snares? hmmm, ‘i’m waiting for help from above’ - that sounds cool.” if this is shallow to you, so be it, this is how i listen to music.

Kraftwerk and Human League?... i don’t know, maybe you’ve read some stuff about them that i haven’t, but to me both are perfect examples of artists who create “escapist art” IMO…. i know i’ve read the story so many times but i can’t remember if it is also in Simon Reynold’s book: Phil Oakey says that the lyrics behind Being Boiled are just nonsense, but the whole band loved them because they sounded so cool. i agree!

even some of the synthpop artists who were trying to be political—Fad Gadget’s political lyrics strike me as clever and quaint, and most important for me, they sound cool. if i want to get a perspective on nuclear war, i will read a book or the newspaper, not listen to “Fireside Favorites”! it doesn’t matter to me that he is trying to make political statements, i mainly just love the mood and the sound. my point here is that i think it is RIDICULOUS/LAUGHABLE to use synthpop/electrowave/whatever to promote the idea of some big “fight”: “grrrr, i’m the operator of my pocket calculator”

>>>>>With opportunism I meant the path of least resistance: First you choose to ignore them because you dont agree with the image they put forth (but that begs the question if one would do the same with DAF, Joy Division, Throbbing Gristle etc.).<<<<

the politics is just a small part of the IP problem for me. besides this, he personally insulted me and every artist/friend that i know in really ugly, tactless ways. i suppose if i met one of my heroes like Phillip Oakey and he was an egotistical, negative person who insulted me and everyone i know, then perhaps i would be turned off from listening to the Human League for a while…. but would i stop listening to the Human League forever? no way, i couldn’t do it.

>>>Sorry that i was a bit rough on you…<<<

no problem for me, but i still think you are making it into a way bigger issue than it is… i never stated that i made some big moral decision to boycott IP. i just said i ignored it because of all the crap that the guy was putting out there at the time. here’s a better analogy for you (ok it’s not brilliant but i think it will help you understand better): if you ate some chinese food sometime and got bad food poisoning from it, maybe for a couple of years every time you look at a chinese food restaurant you think “yuck” and avoid it. then 2 years later you are looking for some tasty food and suddenly you walk by a chinese restaurant and the food smells delicious and you decide to go eat some chinese food…. it runs about that deep for me.

>>>>>Now, Visage were escapist, but they were not a-political! I seem to recall having read that they saw themselves as politically left field, which was the same with Duran, Human League, Cabs, ABC…<<<

maybe they were political people but it’s not reflected in their art, and even if it was, it’s not what i listen to them for. i guess Visage did sing about some major conflict though, there was that terrible “crash of the anvil at the nightclub school”!

>>>>>I’ve never read any interviews of them, let alone talked to them. Them? Him? A-nyway, the way this discussion looks to a casual LSE listener, the Nazi finger has been pointed. I avoid having to do with nazis, such is my right in a democracy, and I would not go to any length to support the work of a nazi artist (ie. like buying their work or so).
But suddenly, it turns out that LSE have only said Hitler was an influence on the last century. That’s an opinion shared by many, of all political persuasions, and not very controversial… So then, are they NOT nazis after all? But if so, why was this stated? How is it important in LSE’s non-fascist art that Hitler was influential to the last century? <<<<

notice how this Nazi-issue has become such a main focus of this discussion, even though it is only 1 of several points i made… that’s because it’s a very touchy subject. i never said that LSE is a nazi, i only said that he brought up Hitler in a tasteless way that was obviously meant to provoke people, and it did manage to offend people, regardless of how he explained it away later. you know, a lot of LSE fans on this GD forum were from Germany… i think that this is a sensitive topic for them—i found it very insensitive and tasteless to bring this name into the conversation. my main problem is, he seemed to enjoy or find it neccesary to bring this negativity and nastiness with him wherever he appeared. now we have reactorlgtn proving my point - you weren’t on the GD forums and didn’t meet the guy, so now you only have the music to judge LSE on—the baggage surrounding the music is already disappearing into the past.

[quote author=“alanbyond”]Anybody has his own “new wave” feeling, it’s subjective… spartak criticize the reactor’s point of view but at the same time he (spartak) pretend to know the “only-true-real” point of view. It looks like an ego fight. Like the battle for the one who will show the biggest vinyl collection… endless void.

The second point is that there’s a difference between a band that use a “fascist” words to point out/criticize it clearly, and the one that plays with fascist concepts but remaining blur (because they are idiot, blind, consciousless, follow the fashion and stereotype of a movement, etc).

huh? (not the first time)
I criticised the escapism that solvent (not reactor) saw as a defining aspect of new wave and i used Simon Reynolds to prove my point. i dont pretend to know everything about new wave but it’s hard to read Simon Reynolds book and see new wave as escapist. It’s even harder to listen to new wave and not see the political agenda behind it.
I’m sorry alan, but you use subjective as an excuse for anyone to see in new wave what he or she wants. That’s like saying ‘feminism is subjective’. You ignore the music has a certain agenda and social framework. It’s not a free ride for everyone that likes the music.
If you see this as “only-true-real” posturing fine, but I’ll prefer to have a debate with people on the basis of arguments.