Who said “vast majority”? Not me. I said my personal perception is that if there’s artists around who have a problem with their 80s past, chances are that they are from the UK. Rick Gervais (Seona Dancing) is another example, although we’re neither talking raw minimal synth nor a musical career as such.
I agree that it is rather likely that some artists had never sounded like what they sounded like had they had different technical opportunities at the time. Which BTW might equally be true regarding contemporary artists. 8)
So one man’s divine bleep indeed is another man’s first step on the long ladder of musical evolution.
On the other hand, infinite technical opportunities do not necessarily equal infinite creativity. Sometimes it is the very lack of these that makes people reach new heights. Or as I once read on a Photoshop site: there’s gazillions of plug-ins but no talent plug-in. :wink:
As they say “Talent will out!” it doesn’t matter if the artist has a toy piano or a Steinway. The tools are ‘enablers’ and modern tools allow for a much higher standard at a much lower cost than the tools of 1980. This causes an artist a problem. Weather to release the old sub-quality original (which the collectors might want) or to produce a higher quality but new recording that will undoubtly be different from the original but the artist is happier with because all those mistakes he/she sees, have been overcome.
I take your point about songs being completely different if more technology had been available. Although Completely different doesn’t mean worse. I am really refering to the difference in quality between home made Cassette Demo quality and a Studio Master Tape for a pressing plant. Same song, different level of production. Lower levels of tape noise, less Sibalence and Plosives, netter balance in the mix so the lyrics can be heard properly for example.
I think I said ‘majority’ but no-one said ‘Vast’ unless I missed it somewhere? What I was trying to say is that most are not ashamed and possibly a very few are. Out of those few who might be, then I think the issue isn’t shame but the other points I made. Sorry if my meaning got lost somehow. It is not always easy to get ones thoughts written down clearly and without ambiguity.
Alright, I surely misunderstood the bit that you meant levels of production, not different generations of instruments. I won’t apologize for the conduct of my nation in the war though. 8)
And while a lot of music sounds overproduced to my ears these days and this can be a major boredom factor, yeah, I guess it’s safe to say that there’s tapes that could have done with a bit more production back then.
I really wonder if we will see a new musical style emerge any time soon, or if it takes a new genetically modified generation that can e.g. hear sounds so far only audible to the canine populations before something revolutionary happens again…...err…now what was the question again? Minimal synth collectors in the UK? :wink:
[quote author=“MintyNutshell”]As they say “Talent will out!” it doesn’t matter if the artist has a toy piano or a Steinway.I don’t entirely agree on that one. I myself have no talent to play keyboard but I can program the equipment that came out late 70’s early 80’s. Technique is just another way of making music making it reachable for different people to step in.[quote author=“MintyNutshell”] causes an artist a problem. Weather to release the old sub-quality original (which the collectors might want) or to produce a higher quality but new recording that will undoubtly be different from the original but the artist is happier with because all those mistakes he/she sees, have been overcome.
Why should the artist be bothered by what collectors think ? What about his/her real fans ? Not collectors but music lovers.
And also for you: Do you have any prove of what you say ? How many artists have you seen bothered with this “problem”
Another thing I just remembered:
In this thread:Steve Fields more or less expresses the above mentioned. As I read it he’s more satisfied with his recent products then the old ones.
Now would that mean his old stuff is less interesting to collectors or listeners after reading that ?
Well… I would say that it doesn’t take talent to play a piano/keyboard or any instrument, it takes skill. Skill is learned. Talent isn’t learned and has largely to do with other people perceptions of weather you are good or not. Talent is therefore subjective and one persons Talented is another persons Talent-less. Tools are enablers, enablers of Talent, or not, as the case maybe. The method of production, sequenced/programed or played is largley irrelevant to the perceived talent, tools enable different methods and are a means to an end. The audience recognise Talent no matter what skills or methods are employed, simply by likeing something. They have no knowledge of the skills or methods of production of what they hear. In the first instance they only know if they like it or not. In summary I think we probably agree on this point?
“Why should the artist be bothered by what collectors think ?”
Good question.
1. Fans can be collectors, why wouldn’t an artist be bothered by what a fan thinks? No-one I know set out to produce music that would be disliked.
2. Collectors do chase artists for the rare, unusual and obscure. Especially where something is known to exist and is very hard to find. Where else would a collector look for an impossible to find item but in the back catalogue or archives of an artist. Doesn’t Minimal Wave release this type of rare/very hard to find items from these sources?
3. What proof do you need and why? Is it not enough that I say this is true in my experience?
Your reference to another thread is interesting but very hard to follow. I don’t know the circumstances or the people involved so I cannot comment on it.
All this seems a very long way from the original question. So I willl state the answer again. UK collectors do exist. Although I am beginning to wonder why this isn’t obvious. Does the proposer of this question have anything more specific in mind? Collectors of what aspects of Minimal Synth in particular?
[quote author=“MintyNutshell”]The audience recognise Talent no matter what skills or methods are employed, simply by likeing something.
So you think someone having talent for technique is also recognised by the audience if that person plays a piano. Or, someone with the talent to paint can also play an instrument showing the same talent.
I would just say the simple statement about talent always coming out just is too simple.
[quote author=“MintyNutshell”]
3. What proof do you need and why? Is it not enough that I say this is true in my experience?
No it isn’t enough to convince me. I think you are wrong. Why can’t you give me some simple proof ? Or at least tell us about your experience then.
Well as you’re new to this forum and since you asked, now the thread starter is somebody who defines himself as a person mainly by means of his record collection, so he is very interested in anything that relates to its value, the rarity of his items and his status as a collector. This of course includes the existence of UK über-collectors he doesn’t know of…yet.
Still, this doesn’t keep him from starting the occasional interesting thread - which is why I decided to post here. :wink:
how did this thread derail into an argument about artists, “real fans” etc.?
clearly, the question was about collectors…this isnt a discussion about the ethics of collecting, just a question why nobody in the UK seemed to have developed an obsession for (= to collect rare) synth music.
“So you think someone having talent for technique is also recognised by the audience”
Yes.
“Or, someone with the talent to paint can also play an instrument showing the same talent.”
No, I wouldn’t expect it but then again it is not impossible. It is possible to be multi-talented. You said yourself that not being able to play an instrument (keyboard/paino/drums etc) is not an obstacle to making music. Why would it be an obstacle to being talented?
“I would just say the simple statement about talent always coming out just is too simple.”
It is a phrase, a simple truth, and like most simple truths exceptions can be found. For every opinion I write, someone will have an opposing one.
“No it isn’t enough to convince me. I think you are wrong.”
Convince you of what exactly? That there are serious collectors in the UK? Or that my opinion and experience is are as valid as the next persons?
“Why can’t you give me some simple proof ?”
And what sort of simple proof would satisfy you then?
“Or at least tell us about your experience then.”
Well my opinion is based on my experience. If you read back through my postings you will see that I am telling you about my experiences.
To falck
Thanks, I understand. It sounds like a semi-competitive thing.
[quote author=“MintyNutshell”]Convince you of what exactly?
Convince me of your statement: “This causes an artist a problem. Weather to release the old sub-quality original (which the collectors might want) or to produce a higher quality but new recording that will undoubtly be different from the original but the artist is happier with because all those mistakes he/she sees, have been overcome.”
It’s a statement that needs proof I think as I never heard or saw an artist him/herself stating this as a problem.
You have written a lot, and for me it has only confirmed that there are no crazy U.K. minimal synth collectors.
If there were, you would just say these are the U.K. collectors.
This dude, this dude, and that dude.
There would be no “the guy is a semi public figure so I can’t say”. If there were a collector in the U.K. even if it were prince charles he would want to be known, and in contact with other serious collectors. There would be no mysterious ambiguity which is what essentially your answer entailed.
In regard to Falck’s slander I will tell you right now that what he said is not true.
I would like to know of any U.K. collectors for these reasons.
1. To find great unknown bands.
2. To trade.
3. To buy records from.
But if there were any U.K. guru’s I would of most likely known about them already.
I started the topic, because I was talking to Joerg on the phone the other day, and he was talking about having good U.K. contacts. And I was saying “are they synth collectors, because I don’t know of any U.K. synth collectors.” We both agreed that the U.K. has the best minimal synth, but its odd that there are no U.K. minimal synth collectors. He said all the collectors he gets his U.K. records from are punk collectors, and I will tell you the same thing. As far as I know, the following people are the most serious U.K. minimal synth collectors.
Joerg(Germany)
Nils(Germany)
Dimitri(Greece)
Alex(Greece)
Jens(Germany)
Jens(Sweden)
Ulf(Sweden)
Francesc(Spain)
Oystein(dude has the Synthetic Romance comp)
Stephen(U.S.)
And none of these people live in the U.K.
Unless you start listing names and email addresses then the mystery that there are no U.K. minimal synth collectors will still exist.
And it is a mystery, because the U.K. has all the greatest records, and no great connoisseur.
You asked a question and I answered it. If you don’t like the answer then that really is your problem.
However, before I give up on this waste of time (I was only trying to be helpful) I shall correct a mistake or two.
If you read my first message, I said that the UK collectors were not “crazy guru’s”, I said they were walking encyclopedias.
They are normal people with families, careers, and lives that are bigger than their record collections and have public reputations.
If you want to know why they are not known to you then you should take a good look at your attitude and the way that you (and others) treat others in this forum.
You make a lot of assumptions about these people and you clearly do not understand the UK ethos : In the UK collectors collect and rarely trade. They certainly don’t sell the contents of their collections that may have taken up to 40 years to put together. Collecting is a private thing, items are to be cherised, they are not commodities to a UK collector. Fail to understand this and you will never know who these people are because they will never make themselves known to you.
So your original question wasn’t beneign, it had an ulterior motive. You weren’t generally interested to know ‘if’ there are UK collectors but really you want to know who and where they are, so you can do what exactly? Go chasing them to trade or sell you stuff?
I am not going to be a facilitator of making their lives hell for your benefit.
Like Dude, someone woke up on the wrrong side of the bed.
Your answer that there are u.k. walking encylopedias of minimal synth that are serious collectors for 40 years, but don’t want to trade with anyone, and don’t want to be known about is not an answer.
I probably know more u.k. punk collectors then you know collectors at all, and they all love to trade. Actually, I don’t know any collectors that don’t like to trade.
You don’t know me, and I feel like you are projecting hatred.
I am a record collector, and I like to trade, sell, and buy records, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Anyway, I’m sorry you think you wasted your time, but you really didn’t because you just helped to prove my point that it is a mystery that there are no crazy, guru u.k. minimal synth collectors in the u.k. If there were then everyone on this forum would know about the person already.
Also, I had no motive for this thread except to make a point.
You project like I want to sell the u.k. collector records, and make money off of them. You project this so you can hate on me for it. I just don’t understand that. Why are you projecting hatred on somebody on a made up action of theirs in your own mind. And more so there is nothing harmful in selling a person records anyway. A person that likes records buys records that they like. Anyway, hopefully tomorrow you will wake up on the other side of the bed.
If you think I have an attitude. Well I do, and it is a punk attitude, and I know when somebody answers a question, and when an answer is nonsense, and I will call that person out on it.
[quote author=“obscure”]Actually, I don’t know any collectors that don’t like to trade.
I don’t.
I mean, sometimes it’s something I like doing, but in general? It involves too much hassle and too much dishonesty. Examples of dishonesty in this case is people pretending an item is their last copy when in fact they have 20, obscurring the items in the trade list to a point where you don’t even know what you’re buying before you actually give in and take it, pretending they don’t have spares of my top wants in order to get rid of their less fascinating objects (like the “last copy” mentinoed above) or simple fraud - people who don’t send their part of the deal, or pretend they didn’t get your part although they did.
I’m not pointing any fingers here, and I did benefit from some great trades in the past (thanks guys!). But on the whole, I don’t actively search for rare items for a trade list anymore, and I don’t try to find out which items someone else is after, in order to get it before them so I can trade with them.
