Minimal Wave Records

wrong.  Today the music world consists of MP3s, but I don’t exist in today.  I live in the world of Vinyl, and tapes still.  I truly despise MP3s, and love Vinyl passionately.  However, if I didn’t care about hearing stuff analogue as opposed to digital, I would never spend a penny on music ever.  To buy an MP3 is a ridiculous concept when anyone can go on soul seek, and get pretty much all the music they want for free through file sharing.  I just wanted to see if people think all the stolen mp3 music is right or wrong.  One argument for stealing minimal synth music digitally, is that it doesn’t really matter.  For Instance, if you buy League of Nations for $300 on ebay or you download it from soul seek, in both cases the amount of money going to the original artist is ZERO.  Anyway, until my analogue brain get’s reformatted I will be an obssessive record collector, but if one day I fell on my head, and woke up in the digital era, I wouldn’t feel any guilt for taking songs from 25 year old bands that never made any money from them anyway.  Let me know what you think!

obscure

Some people are for and some against. What do you think of this: someone I know produced a record for a group and spend 1.500 euro for making the record. One day after the release the record is already on Soulseek for free download. How do you think this person feels about this?

bitch and moan?

perhaps the “technology” will never go away….....deal…..die….do what you like

If you make a record today don’t delude yourself into thinking that there is no chance of it appearing on the Internet? 

Enjoy what you like and forget about it?

Be happy that anyone gives a fuck?

Waste your time finding the “perp” ?

Honestly…...saying you DESPISE mp3’s is like saying you despise cds or bread or air…...unless you’re god, who cares?

Most artists who made the music you like would be flattered that anyone gave enough of a damn to encode their record that they had trouble selling when it was pressed.

There simply are not enough copies of some records to sit in the hands of all that covet them.  If there were then your want list would be shorter.

ugh…

Obscure-

It is true: ultimately there is nothing like the feel or sound of vinyl, or even cassette tape.  The presentation (or lack of) is a key factor too, in understanding the original intention of the artist.

However this leads me to another ‘moral’ question in the world of minimal synth collecting, etc:

Say you come across a band member. We can use Roy Young as an example. Say I met up with Roy Young, and asked him, “Hey do you have any copies of the Vortex 7” left, and he said “sure, how many do you want?”, and I told him I’d take 20 at $5 a piece.  I would make a killing slowly reselling those on ebay! Maybe throw one up there every month for the next year and a half.

Meanwhile, Roy has no idea what is going on nor does he make a real profit off of the sale, simply due to his lack of knowledge pertaining to the market value of the record.

Now does my action there fall into the right or wrong category?

Snowy,

That is a brilliant question :wink: , and here is the answer.
In terms of morals neither Snowy nor Roy have done anything wrong.  This is how it can be explained.

There are two people which consist of:

Roy-  The artist
Snowy- The business person

So here are the preliminary questions that must be examined before further explanation.

Why does an artist exist?  The answer is to create.

How does an artist exist?  In Roy’s case the art form is music.

Why does a business person exist?  The answer is to make money.

How does a business person exist?  The answer is by lying.  Pure and simple. Business people don’t necessarily lie directly.  They lie through the lies of obmission.  For example, a boss doesn’t tell his workers how much money he makes off of them, and a store doesn’t tell its customers how much all the merchandise actually cost when the store bought it.  It’s basically that simple business people lie to make money by with holding information. 

So now back to the moral question of Roy and Snowy.

Roy is the artist, and he made the vortex record, because he had to out of creative impulses.  Roy knows what he created, and he knows how much he thinks its worth, and he now knows how much Snowy thinks its worth.  As an artist I would not assume that Roy made the record to make money, but instead because he had to in order to express his creativity.  So now we have Roy who is in control of the situation.  Roy can do one of three things:

1. Roy can refuse Snowy’s offer and leave the 20 Vortex 7”s in his basement.
2. Roy can try to sell the records by himself to individuals one at a time on EBAY, GEMM or through friends.
3. Roy can accept the offer because he the artist believes that his creation is just as valuable as Snowy has offered.  He might even think that the offer is better than he would get from selling them one by one.

Roy decides to accept the offer, and Snowy delivers the $100 as promised.  Now Roy is happy, and Snowy is happy.  They both came to an agreement over a deal, and then made the deal. 

So now Snowy the business person puts them on ebay one at a time with a buy it now $200 price.  Snowy sells all 20 for $200.  So now Snowy just made $3900 from a record that was bought directly from the artist. 

The final question is does Snowy the business person deserve this $3900 or does Roy the artist deserve it?

They both worked, and they both made money.  The answer is Snowy deserves the $3900 and Roy deserves the $100.  Why?  Because Snowy is a business person and Roy is an Artist.  Snowy researched the record, found out its market value, and put it on ebay under a description where it would go for the highest possible price.  However, Roy the artist on the other hand made the record not necessarily to make money, but to create.  In doing so Roy also created his own value for the record.  He had the opportunity to sell it however he wanted.  In the end he chose to sell it to Snowy for what he believed it to be worth.  There is nothing wrong with what Roy did, and there is nothing wrong with what Snowy did. 

Roy created a record and made a profit equal to $100.

Snowy researched a record, and a market, then searched for Roy to find copies of that record, then made a deal with Roy to purchase that record, then sold that record one at a time in the most profitable place, proceeded to ship out the records, and made a profit equal to $3900.

Let me know your views,
Prof. “O”

It depends on how mercinary the busienss man is.  I have, in good concience, passed up good deals on things I wanted (not necessarily just records) because the seller was unaware of the value.

Here’s an example:  My friend had a 1977 Triumph motorcycle that I wanted.  He came up short on rent one month and offered to sell it to me for $350.  I bought it, but paid him $500.

Back to the scenario at hand:  The “honest” businessman would inform the artist about the demand for the work, and offer to broker a deal between the artist and the market.

I have done this in the past and all parties come out happy.  In the pre-internet days a friend of mine had some rare punk records.  He knew they were worth some money, thinking about $20 each.  I told him that they were selling for $300-$400.  He immediately wanted to sell but had no idea how to go about doing so.  I facilitated an auction for him thru some classified ads in magazines and we split the takings 50/50.  We each walked out of the deal with $400 in our pockets and neither of us felt like we ripped the other party off.

Mr. Stench,

Thank you very much for your points of view on this subject :D .  I understand what you said very well, and this is what I think. 

In both of the examples of you being an honest business person you we’re not being a business person at all.  On the contrary you we’re being a friend.  In the circumstance of the motorcycle, and the records you we’re basically doing a friend a favor.  Here’s what I think.

1. If someone you didn’t know at all offered you their triumph motorcycle for $350, you would of not told that person, “How about I give you $500 for it?” There would be no reason for you to give them an extra $150.  Also, the only reason you did it for your friend was because you knew he was in need of money.  If he hadn’t of been in need of money you more than likely wouldn’t of given him an extra $150 either.

2. In the case of the punk records you we’re not being an honest business person either.  Once again, you we’re doing your friend a favor.  I’m sure he was happy, because now you turned his $100 dollars worth of records into $800 dollars worth of records.  However, you did some other things to your friend as well. One, you used him to make money, and two you turned him into a dishonest business person as well.  Now, you are both doing the selling together, but you are still selling the merchandise at over inflated prices.  I wouldn’t say that is what an “honest business person” would do.  The prices may have been the going rate for the punk records, but the value of these records is very subjective.  One week a record will sell for $800, and the next $200.  So you cannot say that you or your new business person friend we’re being honest business people by selling them for $400 each.  If you wanted to be honest business people you both would of sold them for the price your friend had quoted to you.  It may not have been the going rate, but it was the honest value that your friend believed them to be worth.

Back to Snowy and Roy

In Mr. Stenches scenario this is what would happen.

Snowy the new and improved “honest business person” would tell Roy, “You know Roy, that Vortex 7” has sold for $1000 plus dollars on ebay.  I’d like to sell them for you and split the winnings 50/50”.  Here we are again with Roy back at the same multiple choice question he had before, but with a very different perspective. 

Here are the choices now.

1. keep the vortex 7”s in the basement
2. sell them on ebay himself with this new knowledge that he can make $4000 from his old record.
3. Join forces with Snowy, and instead of making $4000 make $2000. 
4. Sell them to Snowy for $100 as he had originally quoted.

What do we think old Roy’s going to do?  What would you do?  And no Snowy, and Roy are not friends like Mr. Stench and the motorcycle boy.

If Roy chooses #1, or #4 he remains the artist.  If Roy chooses #2, or #3, he either #2 becomes a dishonest business person and uses Snowy, or #3 becomes the dishonest business person with Snowy.

So what would the so called “honest business person” do.  This is what.

Snowy would first tell Roy, “You know what Roy, You just quoted me 20 copies of Vortex for $100, but I have to tell you I bought my own copy of Vortex for $1100 on ebay last year”.  I know you can make a lot more money than $100 from them on ebay, but at the same time that I don’t want to be dishonest to you through the lies of obmission, I also don’t want to be dishonest to the consumers on ebay.  So, in order for us to be “honest business people” this is what I think we should do.  Let’s sell them on ebay together for $5 each.  This way we will both make $50, and the record will sell for how much you the artist actually believed it to be worth, and I will be happy to remain an “honest business person”, because I didn’t use the lies of obmission on you or on any consumers, and you can remain the artist, and now have just become a new and proud “honest business person”. 

In review, here are the Snowy/Roy business scenarios.

1. Snowy the “dishonest business person” makes $3900
2. Roy the newly “dishonest business person” makes $4000
3. Roy and Snowy the new “dishonest business people” make $2000 each.
4. And finally Roy and Snowy the “honest business people” make $50 each.

So there are the choices.  In terms of business, which as stated before is done to “make money”.  Who do we think are the best business people.
Let me know.

Professor “O”

In review, here are the Snowy/Roy business scenarios.

1. Snowy the “dishonest business person” makes $3900
2. Roy the newly “dishonest business person” makes $4000
3. Roy and Snowy the new “dishonest business people” make $2000 each.
4. And finally Roy and Snowy the “honest business people” make $50 each.

Ok ok.

The first thing we must consider though is that “honest” and “business” do not go hand in hand. The nature of a business transaction is not based on truth, or the ‘real’ or ‘actual’ value of the goods. 

Second, the idea is that whether they make $100 or $4000 jointly, one should assist the other. The business person should assist the artist and vice versa.  Each one has something worthy to provide. The business person -  the ability to make something saleable, and the artist - the ability to create a product with integrity and human value.

So in conclusion, “teamwork” is the key here!

Fin :wink:

I think MP3 sharing—-involving no payments of any sort—is fine…
but what the Russian Mafia is doing with all of these mp3 sites and selling CDrs of vinyl only releases on eBay—-THAT is shady…

BUMP !