Particularly the part which said that “many early synthbands flirted a lot with nazi symbols” was shocking to me.
Sorry sometimes my english is not the best when i try to explain things on the net.
It is very true that many bandes used symbols and was singing very provoking lyrics in the early 80´s. And that is one thing why many people think that people that listening to synth are “nazis”.
I think it was a provoke thing or maybe just a mistake that they was into this compilation. Or maybe the Rock O Rama compan was trying to mix political bands with non political..
I still think the term “nazi” is highly appropriate for bands that have lyrics like “Britain for the British” (track A5, by New Dawn) or that refer to the superiority of certain skin colors…
Come on, ideas like these are the exact definition of national-socialism.
And one doesn’t have to be german to be a nazi.
Anyways, a very interesting discussion imho!
Although some comparisons with early new wave bands seem rather poor to me…
Everyone recalls bands like Joy Division, Throbbing Gristle and Siouxsie & The Banshees also flirting with nazi-symbolism in their earliest days (in order to provoke), but I don’t remember them writing lyrics like “White pride, white passion” (Brutal Attack) or “are we gonna sit and let them come? / have they got the white man on the run? / multi-racial society is a mess” or, in a bit less subtle manner, “Paki, paki, get on that boat / Paki, paki, start to row / Paki, paki, get out of here / Paki, paki, go! Go! Go! / Paki, paki, out! Out!” (Skrewdriver)
Claudia, you quote a Skrewdriver track. Why? Is this lyric from their track on the No Surrender LP? Is it a lyric that Final Sound have endorsed?
And to Chinesetheatre: Your claim that Final Sound might appear on a skinhead comp “by mistake” or as a result of “mixing non-political bands with political” seems quite far-fetched… Is the question of how they came to appear on the LP important to you? Would it make a difference to you if this band were on the comp because they were comfortable with the political message the record submits? I didn’t notice any “paki, paki, go go go” in the lyrics of this song, but if it did, in what ways would it affect how you feel about the song?
If you ban bigotry, you’re a bigot. And I don’t think the political views of Skrewdriver will force themselves into my head if I buy a compilation LP they appear on. I’m vastly more intelligent than that (or new ideas need more force than that in order to get into my head, it’s one of those two).
OTOH I recently made a CD-R from a cassette compilation, which included a song called “Dreams of incest”. This song was musically interesting to me, but I did not rip this to mp3 because I was nauseated by the lyrical content.
IOW, I want to ask… do we agree that a line should be drawn somewhere, and if so, where do you think the line should be drawn?
And to Chinesetheatre: Your claim that Final Sound might appear on a skinhead comp “by mistake” or as a result of “mixing non-political bands with political” seems quite far-fetched… Is the question of how they came to appear on the LP important to you? Would it make a difference to you if this band were on the comp because they were comfortable with the political message the record submits? I didn’t notice any “paki, paki, go go go” in the lyrics of this song, but if it did, in what ways would it affect how you feel about the song?
I would have liked the song even if the lyrics or band was “nazi”. It is a good song. In my point of view. It dosent matter who the band behind the song is.
I dont like the other bands on the compilation. But the reason is more that they dont play music i like. And they will not change my political minds.. a good song is a good song..a bad song is a bad song..
But of course…I understand people that dont wants to have a record like this too. It is totally up to them.
[quote author=“ton”]Very well put Claudia. I completely agree.
I think you really have to dig deep to find good evidence that Ian Curtis flirted with Nazism.
Ton, Ian Curtis was in a band called Joy Division. After his death, they changed band name to New Order. And though it does not make him a nazi, and I don’t think he was, a nazi name like that does mean different thing to different people and Joy Div DID have a large skinhead contingent following their gigs. And while I don’t know what’s going on inside a skin head, it IS likely they thought the band flirted with nazism.
@chinese: thanks for the reply! Fair enough i suppose.
I sincerely wanna let bygones be bygones, but the funny thing is: a few months ago there was a huge fuss about whether it was appropriate to offer bootleg LP’s on this forum… including namecalling and all… you know what I’m talking about…
Now someone is offering a compilation with NS/right wing music and suddenly there’s a big sense of open mindedness
A big contradiction to me…
Back to the discussion: yes, it seems perfectly logical to me that a line should be drawn somewhere, but it’s not up to me to decide where. Unless I were the moderator of course, which isn’t the case.
btw, about Final Sound: if I were in band, I would know for sure on which type of label and with which other bands my music would get released. nobody’s that naive I hope. and like I already mentioned: their track is called “genetics”... hm?
Excactly what is it that we are discussing here?
From my part: I question if is it okay to offer/buy/discuss rightwing music on this highly respectable musicforum?
If it’s OK for most forum members, then I may hope that it is OK too that I express my doubts and feelings about it :? I’m all for tolerance, but then the tolerance shouldn’t be selective either.
Personally i would be deeply ashamed if someone would see an LP like this in my collection… “oh yes, I have a nazi LP, but I don’t support it, you know, I just own it for that one cute synthiepop track!”
yeah right…
and ehm… don’t start to throw dirt at eachother. relax 8)
Glad to hear you are willing to let bygones be bygones, Claudia. Thanks for not mentioning any previous grudges you have against me in this discussion.
[quote author=“Claudia101”]I’m all for tolerance, but then the tolerance shouldn’t be selective either.
You mean, either tolerate everything in the whole wide world, or tolerate nothing at all? I disagree with that, as there are things I do tolerate and things I do not tolerate. I do not tolerate nazism, which you seem to think. I tolerate chinesetheatre’s right not to take offence at nazi lyrics. That is different. If I appreciate my freedom of speech, and I do, it seems only fair to extend that freedom also to people I don’t agree with.
In supposing me to tolerate nazism, you are indeed “throwing dirt” at me.
I’m sorry this discussion took a different turn than I expected, so I’ll stand back for a while. Peace.
I’m not saying at all that you or others on the forum are tolerating nazism, BUT that some people however seem to tolerate that music with an outspoken “brown” lyrical content gets propagated as long as the tune is good and the rareness-factor is high.
I am pretty sure that I’m not the only one who is offended by the lyrics on this track. (check the chorus: “black infiltration, genetic deviation”)
Ha, I can’t believe this stuff even gets a mention over here. :!:
By the way, imho this track isn’t too musically brilliant either. average mid-80’s stuff with rather generic sounds. but that’s only a matter of taste of course.
[quote author=“Echo_Frau”]In fact this is what i wondered, this comp is from 1985, so it is very patriotic.
I would prefere we don’t use the world ‘nazi” as for the UK scene, this word is really not appropriated, not for the culture, not for the mentality, for nothing simply.
Have you ever heard of Blood and Honour, Combat 18 and networks like that?
It is true that a lot of bands found and still find inspiration in WWII for their names like Joy Division, Rasthoff Dachau, Dachauer Lustknaben etc; TG adopted the 30’s British National Party logo as theirs and the logo of Industrial Records was a picture from Auschwitz, but most of these bands were anything but extreme rightwing. Even the name Nacht Und Nebel has some WWII connotations to it, but they can hardly be considered rightwing.
The bands used it for shock value as it was the easiest way to get their parents, who had lived thrue WWII, up in the curtains ( or how does one say that in proper English?).
The bands on this “No Surrender” compilation however all had a rightwing orientation, Skrewdriver was a notorious rightwing skin band during the 80’s, so Final Sounds ( Final Solution?) most likely was rightwing. I wouldn’t buy this even if the music was brilliant.
It is interesting however to see and know that there are/were rightwing synthi bands around. Now that we are discussing the brown side of things, are there more rightwing oriented synthi bands? And I don’t mean Gary Numan and his sympathy for Margaret Thatcher back in the 80’s.
I noticed a band sold on ebay last year or so, called the Chyldren. UK, early or mid ‘80s, IIRC. I don’t remember if the songs had nazi lyrics or if it was just an LP with some white power-type ‘ornaments’ on the cover. I seem to remember the music was really good though, the auction had a few mp3 samples.
Other than that, well, there has been some controversy over an Italian band named Kirlian Camera…
I have seen Kirlian Camera a couple of times, but I never had the impression I was watching a band that was “playing the brown note”.
In 1996 I saw them and there was a very small picket line of AFA activists ( 6 people I believe) in front of the venue, but they ( the AFA)could not tell me why KC were supposedly rightwing apart from them liking DI6 and Leni Rieffenstahl films. :?
Frankfully i find the distinction between ‘sincere’ and pseudo fascist expressions a bit speculative if not improper (oneigenlijk) from the context of the music we discuss on this forum.
I seem to recall Trobbing Gristle’s subhuman being an ‘ode’ to the gypsie neighbours they terrorized to the point they fled away. Irony? Perhaps. But there’s always some truth in irony to be found.
What purpose does it serve? It surely is some form of juvenile resistance, against society, to shock your parents! I’m sure some bands came only that far.
But this political and social ambiguity had and still has a very direct effect on its audience. We are thrown upon ourselves! No popular idols that lead us on our search for answers, in our quest to soothe our conscience.
I’m a rational human being perfectly capable of forming my opinions independent of any social forces or cultural expressions. Of course, this is only an ideological intent, shamefully diluted by the complexities of everyday’s life.
The detachment of symbols that need a cultural context, from ideas, define a fundamental principle. That’s the only message in this music I have sincerely taken to heart.
Yet here we are: Heesters live on Woodstock so it seems. I’m wondering if the record gives you free entrance?
[quote author=“samhain”][quote author=“Echo_Frau”]In fact this is what i wondered, this comp is from 1985, so it is very patriotic.
I would prefere we don’t use the world ‘nazi” as for the UK scene, this word is really not appropriated, not for the culture, not for the mentality, for nothing simply.
Have you ever heard of Blood and Honour, Combat 18 and networks like that?
Of course, i worked on that topics for more than 2 years.
But this is not where i lead, i know what you want to say me throught this.
No, this is not the direction of my point of view.
Just a little note :
I just talked with a skinhead/oi! friend (no no, not a right wing guy but a pure apolitical skinhead nerd) which was is in this scene since the ‘77 period.
Seems that the Final Sound not only had songs like this, with synths etc, a lot of guitar songs of them exist and in fact, i like them less thas this one (cause of the synth i am sure hehe) but what the guy said to me and i totally agree is that this “genetics” song is strictly made in the good conventions of skinhead music, simply as it should be, if we’re following the musicologic thesis.
It is not very different from the French bands of that period, really, also for the french cold wave scene, better you guys, don’t know which one of your so rare and costy records involves guys that pretty great assholes.
So as somebody told before, and i deeply agree, the right question here is more the importance of the instrumentation to let a song or an other pretending to be classified into “minimal” or “synth” or “cold wave” than the question of the political mind of the band’s protagonists.
a good song is a good song..a bad song is a bad song..
