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Production equipment
Posted: 01 June 2009 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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[quote author=“nuit-exterieur”]“Outmoded” - i am sorry;  I got so carried away with wanting to link analog electronics with hunting I let my diction wain.

I am imagining re-writing Theodore Kaczynski’s description of hunting a rabbit in the snow to instead describe trolling craigslist postings for hidden analog bargains…

:D

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Posted: 02 June 2009 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“futility”]
But the genre that grew, to put it crassly, around 16th notes, analog sounds, Martin Hannet production and cold war easthetics is still appealing and the best way to handle the 16ths/analog part is still to just use that sort of gear.

now the only question is - how to handle the martin hannet production? raspberry raspberry in all seriousness, allow me to hijack this thread and return it to its original trajectory.
one thing i’ve considered experimenting with is recording synths that are amped and mic’d, instead of direct through a mixer. given my resources, that’s not really feasible to do in a one-take setting, so considerable overdubbing would have to be done….was wondering if anyone had any experience with this kind of recording (in their home or ghetto budget jerry-rigged studios, naturally)? seems like a good way to get a more organic and spacious quality out of your electronics (not that organic and spacious are always good things)...

“Later Der Plan records are piled high with FM synths, most of the success stories went on to fairlights and synclaviers, “

potentially interesting tangent: what are some other good examples of minimal stuff with digital synths? i know 18e oktober used a dx-7 (and definitely some of the other swedish bands of that era), and i feel like fm synths pop up in a handful of french bands…i’m sure there are plenty of other examples that are just dodging my brain right now…i guess pretty much anything after 86/87 would probably have at least one or two digital synths…

 
Posted: 04 June 2009 05:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Hey Shawn, Xavier from Automelodi has quite a bit of experience with recording amplified synthesizers, had a long talk w him about it in April.  When it comes to idiosyncratic studio mic-ing techniques hes done some really interesting experiments up in frozen cold Montreal…though in general haven’t we had enough of the sound and ethos of his majesty Martin Hannett even if he truly is the most important producer of Pop music in the 2Oth century…zzzzz ??? smile

 
Posted: 04 June 2009 05:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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[quote author=“teachu2die”]potentially interesting tangent: what are some other good examples of minimal stuff with digital synths? i know 18e oktober used a dx-7 (and definitely some of the other swedish bands of that era), and i feel like fm synths pop up in a handful of french bands…i’m sure there are plenty of other examples that are just dodging my brain right now…i guess pretty much anything after 86/87 would probably have at least one or two digital synths…

Stratis used some DX (seven or eleven) extensively - lots of tracks are made on a DX alone accompanied by KR-55…

 
Posted: 04 June 2009 07:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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[quote author=“WIERD”]...though in general haven’t we had enough of the sound and ethos of his majesty Martin Hannett even if he truly is the most important producer of Pop music in the 2Oth century…zzzzz ??? smile

and mere minutes after reading this, ‘love will tear us apart’ pops on the radio in the coffee shop i’m at…. raspberry
maybe i should bug xavier about mic’ing techniques…why isn’t he here on the forum?

 
Posted: 04 June 2009 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“teachu2die”]maybe i should bug xavier about mic’ing techniques…why isn’t he here on the forum?

From my experience the whole subject on miking techniques is very exaggerated. I did some extensive tests while my ears were still OK but not much shocking came out of it.
In short:

Condenser mikes are the best.
Omni’s are better then cardiods,
Differences between mikes are much less then people think.
Using the EQ from a mixing board has much more influence on tonal balance then the differences between mikes.
Placing of microphones is mostly a case of trial and error.
Room acoustics influence everything.
Close miking reduces the influence of acoustics.
X/Y, Bloomlein, MS etc. are all techniques not interesting for popmusic.

That’s about it.

Ton

 
Posted: 04 June 2009 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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[quote author=“deutschmark”][quote author=“teachu2die”]potentially interesting tangent: what are some other good examples of minimal stuff with digital synths? i know 18e oktober used a dx-7 (and definitely some of the other swedish bands of that era), and i feel like fm synths pop up in a handful of french bands…i’m sure there are plenty of other examples that are just dodging my brain right now…i guess pretty much anything after 86/87 would probably have at least one or two digital synths…

Stratis used some DX (seven or eleven) extensively - lots of tracks are made on a DX alone accompanied by KR-55…

hmm never ‘quoted’ before Shawn how do I do this ‘contemporary’ activity? smile 

I’m not much on knowing gear details but seems like theres plenty of great digital synth records on the minimal-esque side mid/late 80s, just lookin at this stack of LPs in front of me Limbo’s ‘Our Lady of Cancer’, Feu Ma Mere’s ‘Seasons of Mournful’, Data-Bank-A, Severed Heads, Pink Dots, and Trisomie 21 all went digital pretty early on, wonder what T21 used to make the masterpiece EP ‘Shift Away/Jakarta’ might be their earliest digital endeavor?, never tire of that one after all these years…

...then again maybe the digital synth sound is simply all it took to metamorphose the classic claustrophobic minimal sound into the Flemish ‘jock n roll’ aesthetics of EBM???...suppose we already dealt w that question though.  And yeah man lets get Xavier on here, he knows more about unorthodox methods of recording electronic music than anyone I’ve ever met.

 
Posted: 04 June 2009 06:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Severed heads were big users of Yamaha TX-81x module.  I see an Ensoniq in every Poesie Noire video.  I don’t know about Trisomie 21, but they appear to be enthusiastic early adopters of everything they could find.  I can’t remember the synths on Jakarta, I just remember the bass.  Some strings, could easily be something digital.  ESQ-1s can do really nice cold stings (but never get the fuzziness of a proper old string machine.)

I never became a mic fetishist either. even when I used to record bands for radio.  Maybe it was the fact that the recordings were just extra work and my real job duties were of a more technology/administrative/support nature.  Eventually it got to the point where I’d just point all the ElectroVoice RE-27NDs we had for voice at whatever instruments the bands brought in and spend the time I would have spent dealing with changing them out and phantom powering them and noting which was on what instrumnet/channel to just listen carefully as I positioned them.  Nobody ever complained.

Does everyone know how to do a toilet reverb?

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Posted: 05 June 2009 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“futility”]Does everyone know how to do a toilet reverb?

An impulse response would be my answer. Are you aware of these?

 
Posted: 05 June 2009 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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heh….good advice on mic’ing synths from ton and david - ‘it doesn’t really matter’!! maybe i will play around with things this weekend…thanks for the tips smile

@ wierd - it is indeed interesting how the shift to digital/midi accompanies this major shift in attitude….why would fm synthesis bring out the closet jock in so many electronic music producers??

 
Posted: 06 June 2009 03:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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[quote author=“teachu2die”]heh….good advice on mic’ing synths from ton and david - ‘it doesn’t really matter’!! maybe i will play around with things this weekend…thanks for the tips smile

Hee, I didn’t say that but I sure wanted to give you some “limitations” on what should be important and what isn’t :wink:

Ton

 
Posted: 07 June 2009 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Me voici.

...I’ve been lurking around this forum for a few weeks now but this thread finally convinced me to sign up. I recognized many posts from Pieter and Sean whom I know pretty well now (hi there!) but otherwise I am clearly a newbie here so allow me to introduce myself: Xavier (from Automelodi).

Interesting topic indeed! I find it particularly interesting that this thread refers to the potential importance of limitations in electronic music production techniques while also touching the subject of mic-ing amplified sources (especially synths). In my experience, it is often because of of my synthesizers’ limitations that I was pushed to experiment with recording their amplified sound.

The few true analogs that I own are fairly limited (in terms of modulation routings, etc.) (or even in terms of basic sound quality!) so I am always trying to add new forms of “modulation” or unpredictability in the process when I record these. Besides electronic ways of modulating/transforming the sound (FX, etc), I find that different “source” transducers (and their physical components), room acoustics and acoustic-to-electric transducers (mics) can definitely play a very interesting role. I especially like how small of inferior-quality amps/speakers can react depending on the synthesizer waveform and cutoff/resonance variations. It is not just about distortion or amp overdrive: there are also subtler and less-predictable possibilities, like the cheap plastic casing of a miniature amp starting to buzz “sympathetically” to the sound produced by the paper diaphragm of its speaker (but only when you play certain notes…), for example.

Of course, I am certainly not the first one to experiment with these ideas: early electronic music pioneers like Maurice Martenot (and many others) have tried to expand the timbral possibilities of their instruments by using different types of amplifiers, etc.

I agree with Ton and “futility” about the idea that it’s not necessary to become obsessed with microphone quality (especially if your intention is not to record acoustic instruments in a traditional way). Obviously, condenser or dynamic, and different polar patterns can make big differences but microphone quality is a very relative notion nowadays, when sometimes even audiophile magazine reviewers are not even able to hear the difference between a 30K $ vintage Telefunken condenser and its 99.9% exact Chinese replica (that sells for a tiny fraction of the price). I think it’s much more exciting to spend time experimenting with source/mic positions/distances, room acoustics, etc… and for that you just basically need one or two decent (and that doesn’t mean expensive) condenser mics.

 
Posted: 09 June 2009 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Hi Xavier,

I listened to your tracks on MySpace and I want to ask you if your ideas on recording synths through amps are also heard in those tracks and in what way ?

I was particularly impressed by the production of the track “Buanderie Jazz”’
Perfect dreamy sound. At least I am interested how those guitar- and overall sound of the song were accomplished.

Hope you want to share some details with us.

Ton

 
Posted: 11 June 2009 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Hi Ton,

Some of the tracks on my Myspace profile, like “RentrĂ©e 3007” are not so recent so the synths on these were recorded direct because this is what I mostly did back then. There is one short instrumental track, though, called “Minilied”, which is actually an assemblage of tracks that were taken out of another (yet unreleased) song. All the tracks on “Minilied” were recorded using a modest Yamaha CS-1 connected to a small (early 60’s) Kay tube amp, mic’ed with an old Electro-Voice 630 dynamic. I also added some spring reverb from my RE-201 Space Echo between the CS-1 and the amp on some of the tracks. Of course this represents just one of many possibilities, and since it’s recorded with a dynamic you can’t really hear the acoustics of the room. There are more examples of synths recorded through amps on the Automelodi EP and on some of the productions I made for other bands, though.

On “Buanderie Jazz” the only synth sound is the bass and this was recorded direct because I wanted a very dry sound. Most of the effort went on the guitars. I think one of the key ingredients in this case is the Roland JC-120 amp, which has a very distinct, clear sound and a fantastic built-in “stereo” chorus/vibrato that oscillates between the two speaker cones. Patrick (Automelodi’s guitar player) used a Telecaster for all the tracks, but we spent a lot of time trying countless pick-up/amp/FX/mic-position settings. We ended up with at least five different takes of the rhythm part and all these takes were recorded on two separate tracks, one using the SM-57 (very close to the amp), and another one using a condenser (cardioid, a few feet away from the amp). I wanted a very wide “jangly” sound for that guitar part so I knew that I needed to multi-track and stereo-pan it but with so many recorded takes, half of the work was then to choose which tracks to use in the mix, and how to use these. It was admittedly a bit of trial-and-error process because the song was recorded in a rehearsal space and not a “proper” studio. We had no isolated control-room so it was very hard to instantly get a clear idea of how the recorded signal sounded versus the loud sound of the amp in the room. That’s why I decided to record as many possibilities as I could in order to choose later. After trying different combinations, I ended up using a blend of three different tracks. Not very minimal, I know.

For the lead guitar parts we added a few FX pedals in the chain, mainly an old Yamaha flanger (I’ve had this pedal for years and it’s still one of my favorites) and then either an Electro-Harmonix Holy Grail or an MXR Carbon Copy delay…(I forgot which one…Patrick probably remembers). I tweaked the flanger and the JC-120 chorus/vibrato settings to a point where the guitar almost sounded like bells ringing. I was very excited about that sound but we had no written lead guitar part so I just told Patrick to improvise on a few tracks. I remember we were running out of time on that day so we did this pretty quickly, but Patrick managed to come up with very interesting clangorous (...almost atonal at times) patterns. The sense of urgency probably helped.

Also, I think one of the most important choices I made for that mix was to keep the drums fairly low so that the guitars could really be up-front.

Oh, and *triangle* (but you won’t hear that on the Myspace player, though).


I hope this answers most of your questions…of course there are other production details but this is starting look like a novel so I’ll stop there.

Oh, and by the way, Ton, it’s an honour to meet you on this forum…I really like what I’ve heard so far from Ensemble Pittoresque.

 
Posted: 12 June 2009 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Hi Xavier,

Thanks for your words and long explanation.

Yes I know, describing how you did it sometimes takes more effort then just doing it smile

The on the spot made guitar patterns really make the track “Buanderie Jazz” interesting. Without them it would still be a good theme but it could become boring after 1 minute.
Keeping the drums down also make theoverall volume louder.

Last questions:
Do you use some kind of compression either hardware or software like ?
I suppose you record digitally ?

Grtz,

    Ton

 
   
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